S4 Ep15: Move, Heal, and Thrive in the Sport of Life - Interview with Dat Cao, PT OCS

When pain knocks on your door and threatens to steal the joy from the activities you love, it's not always clear how to push through. That's where the wisdom of my personal physical therapist, Dat Cao of Native Physical Therapy, comes into play. This episode is a goldmine for anyone who lives to move and moves to live, offering a deep dive into the transformative power of physical therapy. Dat and I peel back the layers of common misconceptions about pain during physical activity, and we celebrate the undeniable link between movement, recovery, and mental health. For those of us juggling the complexities of life, from career shifts to the challenges of parenting, this conversation is a reminder to lace up your sneakers and keep dancing through life's hurdles.

There's a silent dance that often goes unnoticed—the intricate steps between pushing limits and nurturing recovery. Throughout our discussion, you'll be inspired to rethink the way you view exercise progression, pain management, and the therapist-patient partnership. We stand firm on the philosophy of treating life as the sport it truly is, coaching listeners to not just play but excel at this game. From the importance of consulting healthcare professionals in understanding pain to the potential of treatments like dry needling, this episode is filled with stories and insights that resonate with anyone on a path toward better health.

Lastly, let's talk about self-care—not as a luxury, but a necessity. It's time to shed the guilt and embrace routines that are as refreshing as a morning jog. Dat share's the transformative effects of his first CrossFit class, a testament to the power of community and the motivation to persist.If you're ready to prioritize your well-being and unlock the full potential of your body and mind, then this is the conversation you've been waiting for.

Dat Cao, PT, DPT, Certified Orthopedic Specialist
Native Physical Therapy, Founder and CEO
www.nativept.com

Don't get weird, use your head, it'll all be OK!

Looking for a coach to help you be YOUR best self? Let's get in touch!

www.centerstagethleticscoaching.com
info@centerstageathleticscoaching.com
IG: @teamcsfp
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

Well, good morning and hello and welcome to Coaching in Cocktails, the podcast. This is Tina, and I have yet another special guest with me today because Ms Brandy is still currently working on her kitchen and so doesn't have that. She's remodeling the kitchen and doing some other things. So I'm just having special guests upon special guests and this week I have somebody new with me. As many people know, I have probably I've had 12 plus I lose count surgeries, I have lots of injuries and lupus and all the things that go along with that. So I thought it would be really cool to have a conversation with one of the people who has been instrumental in helping Humpty Dumpty stay put together every time Humpty Dumpty gets broken, as I like to call myself. So I have my own personal physical therapist extraordinaire with us, dat Cow. So Dat can you introduce yourself and just tell everybody a little bit about you and your background and your business and just who you are.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Sure Thanks, thanks. See how long it's been. It's been like seven years, maybe Eight years.

Speaker 1: 1:29

I was trying to go back and figure out when I had my hip surgery. I think that might have been 2016. I'm going to have to go back and look at my notes because I lose, I lose, count. But yeah, it's been a while and you, you helped me recover from that was the first time I met you, so give us a little background on you and what you do.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Sure, sure. So I'm Dat. I've been a physical therapist for over 13 years now. I used to work at a outpatient orthopedic clinic connected to like a larger hospital system. That's kind of where I met Tina and started working with her and I discovered, you know, I really enjoy working with the active population, the runners, weight lifters, people that want to, you know, compete and stay, you know, in the game of life. So it wasn't until about six months ago that I kind of started my own business called Native Physical Therapy. I look at it in Annapolis, maryland. You know, personally I enjoy CrossFit, running, power boarding, you know, things that really keep me in the game and keep me active with my two little girls. I specialize in dry kneeling, manual treatments, but really it's, you know, it's an exercise progression. So, you know, finding the right prescription for each person. And that's kind of where I think I strive in my creativity and working with patients and kind of meeting them where they're at because everyone's different. So that's kind of the role and mission behind Native Physical Therapy.

Speaker 1: 3:13

So what is the native in Native Physical Therapy for?

Speaker 2: 3:17

you Sure, yeah, yeah, you know I became a physical therapist, not because you know, I enjoy like the medical field, but it was the actual skill of something. You know it was actually having skills and it's something that's transferable. You know to do it anywhere. Anyone needs physical therapy at some point and I don't have prescribed medications, I don't have to. You know indoctrate people and like the whole surgical procedures and you know.

Speaker 2: 3:47

So Native is coming from within, coming from your own. You know being able to heal both you know, with your mindsets, with your approach, and you know I think everything is, you know, begins there and then learning how to you know, know and know yourself and then heal yourself. You know coming from within. So that's where the term native comes from and my logo, it's an olive branch. So not only you know, I think medicine and this journey is a relationship. So not that you know I'm dictating and telling you what to do, but it's a piecemeal of you know coming together between you and me and like the actual process and learning how to get from A to B and kind of meet your goals.

Speaker 1: 4:38

So it's a partnership.

Speaker 2: 4:40

Yes, yeah, and it should be yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:44

And very much like I tell my clients all the time like I'm not here to dictate what you're going to do or not going to do. I'm here to give you guidance. And then we have to have this open dialogue and this open conversation about what you need, what you're feeling, what's happening, what I think is best, and then find that middle ground and what's actually going to work. Because sometimes what's best, what I think is best I'm sure you have experience the same is not actually what's going to work for the client. Yeah, the patient, or you know, whatever you call it. I love that.

Speaker 1: 5:13

You said you know being a that use the game of life. Because I think I told you like our whole center stage athletics is coaching for the sport of life, right. So sport game, it's, it's you know we treat, we have this concept called life athlete right. So we coach a lot of bodybuilders, but we also coach a lot of your average. I don't want to say average everybody, nobody's average, right, but your, your, your soccer moms and you're just women who just want to feel better in their lives, never caring to get on stage and just, you know, feel better and so, but it's all.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Like you said, it's mental right, we use it's. It is a sport, life is a sport and if you, if you treat it as such and you apply the same kind of principles to it and you kind of go through your life in that respect. So I think it was cool because I think we have kind of a similar philosophy in terms of that and I like the native from within too, right, I think that in the Olive branch. I think that's all very cool. I actually didn't know that. I didn't know that that's a kind of a kind of assume. That's what the native was and I think your Instagram is it native runner.

Speaker 2: 6:20

Yeah, native runner PT Yep.

Speaker 1: 6:22

Okay, so you run a lot. You do a lot of running, right, Are you? You're really enjoying races.

Speaker 2: 6:30

Yeah, I enjoy like signing up for races. I'm kind of my quiet period now where I'm more lifting and doing the CrossFit thing, but I, you know, I sign up for races to keep me accountable, it's just fun. You know, especially after COVID, I really miss that community of runners. And so positive, like bodybuilding, right, like you just cheering each other on, you're, you know, celebrating each other, you're helping each other out, you're clapping hands for each other, I mean it's, it's such a bringing together of people and mindset and just a big party. You know like what that's life, right? You know you gotta enjoy it.

Speaker 1: 7:11

And community is so important. I mean, it's just something I'm actually. Community and connection I think is really important. Just, you know, whether it's mental or physical health, and I think finding a community, whatever that is, whether it's running or bodybuilding or CrossFit or music or art or whatever your thing is right, like having having some kind of community. I think is is really important. But yeah, that's, that's cool, that's why I like it too. You know, it's good to I like I've enjoyed expanding my community because it was like bodybuilding was the only community I had for a really long time and I was like, oh my God, is there anything outside of this world? Right, so having a little diversity there.

Speaker 1: 7:55

So I remember one of the reasons, you know, something that really drew me to you as a physical therapist, because I remember right after my hip surgery, I think I met with somebody at the end of the video because in this practice, where you know the that used to work in, which is where my all my orthopedic surgeons work, I have a cornucopia of orthopedic surgeons in the same practice. But I remember I think right after my surgery I saw somebody else in the practice. I think it was my very first, whatever it was like right after the hip surgery and it was, it felt like this was one of those people that was used to dealing with elderly population of, like, recovering from hip surgery and stuff, and it was a lot of like don't do, you, shouldn't do like this, take it easy. And I get that there is an element of that. But I remember and then and I don't know if that was just who was available for my first appointment, but my second appointment was with you and you know I'm always really open and honest with every physical therapy therapist I've ever worked with and I'm like I'm an athlete and I need to get back to work. Right, like this is. This is just a bump in the road for me. So how are we going to get there?

Speaker 1: 9:13

And, and you know, I, you know my faith, I'm famous for saying and I have no, I don't understand like pain tolerance, so I actually need some. Because I have such a cause, of cause I've been driven to hurt all the time. I'm like I need somebody to tell me like, if it hurts, do I keep going, or if it hurts, do I stop, or is some discomfort okay? Right, because, because I think even when you were helping me with stretching. Like a couple of weeks ago when I came to see you and I was like, and you're stretching me? I'm like, yeah, that hurts really bad. And you're like, well, you gotta tell me when it hurts. But I'm just so used to doing those things. So I appreciate that you work to help, that you like working with athletes.

Speaker 1: 9:56

That's what drew me to you, because I wasn't interested in somebody telling me what I couldn't do. Right, so I was. I needed somebody to tell me, okay, what can I do? How are we going to get me back to work? And then kind of like helping me through that, more than because I think that there is this prevalence C it's probably a bad word, this that as soon as I feel pain, I'm just not supposed to do something. My back hurts, well then I shouldn't. I shouldn't do whatever. My knees hurt that's a famous one. My knees hurt, so I'm not going to, so I can't run or whatever right that pain is. I'm not saying pain is never an indicator that something's wrong and you should stop it, but I think you know we were going to talk a little bit today about I just kind of heard this concept when I was listening to the David Goggins and Huberman podcast. Right the hurt versus harms.

Speaker 1: 10:52

I think that was the hurt where I heard the term hurt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the one where I heard the term hurt versus harm and hurt being. Yeah, there's pain, there's physical pain or there's physical discomfort. Harm being is there an actual injury or am I injuring myself further by continuing to work through the pain? I think right. So I think it doesn't. Hurt doesn't always mean there's an injury that's going to be exacerbated by what you're doing physically. That's how I sort of interpreted the hurt versus harm, for example. I mean, I can use myself as an example. I have a lot of joint pain from lupus. It hurts.

Speaker 1: 11:41

I'm not actually doing more physical harm in my physical endeavors, right, my weight training and things like that. In fact, I'm doing myself a disservice if I stop moving just because I hurt, right? So I'm not working out on broken legs. I'm not a David Goggins. I promise I will never run on broken legs, right, like that's, and I'll never run. If I'm running, just look to see what's chasing me. Because I'm not, because running is not my thing, but that's kind of my point, right? So I think a lot of people and yes, again, I'm not saying that pain is not a signal from the body that says pain is a signal from the body that says stop most of the time, but it's evaluation is it for me? If I were to stop moving, I can tell you the pain is much worse.

Speaker 2: 12:32

Yes.

Speaker 1: 12:33

So I keep moving so that the pain doesn't get worse. But my pain does not mean I'm causing more physical harm. That makes sense to you, right? Like that's kind of what you and I were chatting about last time I saw you, at least in my mind, that's what we were chatting about. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 12:54

Yeah, totally. I mean, there's always various degrees and it's hard to say like, am I hurting myself further if I keep going? I always give my patients a set of rules, especially for runners. If you're running and it hurts a little bit and then it goes away, well, yeah, that's the type of pain that maybe it was a little stiff or maybe just something I had to work out, and that's fine.

Speaker 2: 13:19

Sometimes it does take a little bit of movement and warming up to kind of get things going to the right position or just kind of get your form right. Something that comes on and starts to change the way you run or change your movement. Well, maybe that's where I have to. Instead of running that day, maybe I'm walk running. So that's kind of your.

Speaker 2: 13:41

You know, there might be something there that might be a little bit of a strain, maybe you went a little bit hard. So it's just finding that degree of activity that can keep you moving but not necessarily generate pain. Now, if you're running or doing something and it really changes your way that you do everyday life going up down the stairs, picking up your kids, that's, you know, that's that's when you should probably ask for some advice, maybe a physical therapist or maybe orthopedist, someone that kind of has some sort of degree and background, to say, hey, you should do something about this, and then there's totally broken right. That's the type of pain where I can't do anything anymore. I gotta use crutches, gotta go to the ER. That's another type of pain, that's your emergency room type pain.

Speaker 1: 14:42

Where there's a pop, a searing pain, a bone sticking out, you know something along those lines, or a pain that gets progressively worse over time, even with modification, or even, I guess, without modification, because not everybody's gonna modify right.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Oh, yeah, I can help you when it's stage two or three, right, like it hurts I changed where Ironic feels better, or it hurts and it lingers for a little bit longer than it should I can definitely help you within about, you know, a 10, 15 minute consult. We have some sort of idea of what's going on, how to modify it. You know what could be causing it or do you need to seek further? You know, addressing imaging or whatever. Once it kind of gets to that point where you're like I gotta go see a doctor or something about it, you know, and for someone's head, if that's the case, then that's gonna take much longer. You know that's kind of where you have to. You have to do something about it.

Speaker 2: 15:38

It used to be yeah, was it? Rice rest, ice compression, elevation. You know I like to take the R out and put in active movement. You know some sort of activity that is going to improve it. Get fluid going to it, get blood flow into it. That's where the magic is, you know, that's where you know someone comes to me with, like, a acute injury. Yeah, rest it, but really keep it moving. You know, cause it's that stiffness that's really gonna cause the irritation or the prolonged healing, say tendon injuries. It used to be that you know you rest it and you don't do anything to it until the pain goes away. Well, now the research shows like, yeah, hop on a bike for 10 minutes, doing something light to kind of keep it moving, really generates the you know, the flow of fluid, the flow of blood to it to help the healing process.

Speaker 2: 16:40

So you know it's a in various PT specialized in different things. I mean, honestly, when you graduate PT school, you're a generalist like you can go in any direction. You can go work in women's health, you can go work with babies, so a lot of PT's kind of graduate that and that's kind of it and that's the background, that's their knowledge. But there are PT's that specialize. So you know I specialize in orthopedics and sports. So you know, having that background gives me a little more insight about all right, how can I treat the injured athlete, which is much different than treating grandma with a total hip replacement, right, but yet the education can be the same. So you know when, when I don't blame the PT, I don't, you know, it's just like their background. Knowledge and finding the right patient with the right physical therapist is so important Just finding, like the right doctor, or find the right coach you know for the right sport is highly, highly important, you know, especially for your goals.

Speaker 2: 17:43

So that's kind of how I view pain and a lot of people kind of get into the mindset all right, I'm injured, I can't do anything, but what's the next best thing you could do, like what's the next thing that you could do to keep you moving? So for you it was like a non-weight bearing hip injury. Well, can I row? Yeah, you can row. Or can I do upper body work? Yeah, as long as you kind of stay within these protocols, right, like every surgeon has a protocol about how they want to heal the hip, and with yours it was yeah, it's tough. It's like six weeks non-weight bearing, slowly progressed in a certain motion. I thought.

Speaker 1: 18:18

I was going to lose my ever-loving mind in six weeks that I was on crutches and I couldn't, I couldn't, I'm so used to my husband calls me a cricket because, like, in the kitchen, I'm like, I'm just fast, I'm just like I'm doing a ton of things.

Speaker 1: 18:35

You can't be fast doing anything in the kitchen while you're hobbling around on crutches or I'm like, and then I'm pushing the limits, because then I'm hopping around on one foot and I'm probably which is easier than hopping around on crutches and then I'm probably at risk of like, well, at some point I might trip and lose my balance and put my leg down, but I switch the limits. I remember when I was finally allowed to do like no tension on my spin bike. Yeah, it was the most boring thing you could, possibly because I am. I mean, you're talking about like pedals, that like you could just like spin them with your pinky finger, right, Like you just, but it for me, because I'm so used to movement. If I could, there was no way I was just going to sit for six weeks right, Like I was like I've got to find a way to move my body.

Speaker 1: 19:25

So yeah, like you said so, either I was doing some upper body work or, when I was able to, no tension, spin on my spin bike. You know it was anything to just get my blood moving, because for me and you may feel the same way we talked a little bit about the mental aspect of it. Right, like the within. That's sort of my drug, that's my dopamine hit right.

Speaker 1: 19:53

So, without it. Yeah, life feels a whole lot harder for me if I'm not getting some, and I'll share it I know I've shared this in podcasts before like I used to be very black and white and all or nothing, right. So when I was in the throes of my bodybuilding career, when I hit my first patch of injuries, which was in 20, I started competing in 2005, and I competed too much and I did too much too soon and I wrecked my body and I ended up with a torn bicep at both ends right, so distal and in my shoulders so and then I ended up with back-to-back surgeries in 2007 for a torn bicep at the elbow, torn bicep slap, repair the shoulder all in the same arm, of course and I did nothing for a year. And then I went into a severe depression and I gained a ton of weight because I was in this mindset of like, well, I can't lift like a bodybuilder, so I can't do anything I had it was all in my shoulder. I could have been walking on the treadmill, I could have done, I could have walked my neighborhood, I could have done anything, but I just had this mindset. I was so all or nothing, and so it was kind of getting through that and sort of making my way back by 2009 to the stage and then realizing that, like I think I had to, I went through that, that pretty serious depression and the surgeries and stuff and sort of lost my identity as a bodybuilder and mentally was just in a really bad place. And then I started to realize, as I started to move my body again after about a year and that I felt better.

Speaker 1: 21:33

And it was that in all of that that I realized I was like okay, like mentally, I need to be moving, period. It doesn't have to be the way I think it's going to be. It doesn't. It's not. You can't have all or nothing, black or white mentality, because I think a lot of people fall into that Well, if I can't run, I won't do anything, right? Versus do a run job that day, or versus just do a walk that day, or versus do yoga that day, right? Sure, now at least I've learned so much over the years since getting back in 2009 and I've had so many more surgeries and stuff.

Speaker 1: 22:10

Now I know I'm just like okay, well, whatever I can do is what I'll do, right, like, if it's not what I want to and there are days even I go out into my garage gym and I'm like I can't. Mentally I want to do so much more than physically my body like will let me do on that given day and I'm like, okay, well, I can't do, meant, what I want to do mentally is lift this weight and do these things. And I'm like physically I'll just get on treadmill, like this morning. I was like, well, I'm just walking on the treadmill this morning, I can't do what I mentally want to do, but I got, but I can do something, right, and because I know that that's going to be better than nothing, but anyway. So that was just kind of a long, you know winded story about getting that Kind of recovery for me and realizing that I just I remember I even took a I was so happy To get on that stupid spend bike with no tension.

Speaker 1: 23:07

I was just, you know, and I'm not a good patient I I mean I don't know how much of a hard time I gave you. I'm pretty sure I gave you a hard time on more than occasion.

Speaker 1: 23:18

I was like I can't do this, I'm not gonna do it this way or that. You know, I'm, I was always the, but I used to be able to, and you know, and I'm like, yeah, well, tina, you can't do it anymore. So right, was I that horrible?

Speaker 2: 23:32

Yeah, really. No, I want to say horrible. You were, you were challenging and this is what it takes. You know, like you have to, you have to, you have to challenge the medical professional. Like, like we get in such a routine and in such a high volume setting you're seeing 16, 14 to 16 patients a day I mean you just get burnt out.

Speaker 2: 23:52

This is, you know, this is the medical field. This is like dealing with people's injuries and lives, of livelihoods. But you know, the doctors see it and we see it. A lot of the PAs, you know, we just get I don't know what happened to the medical system, but that's, that's kind of where we're at. We kind of treat patients in as a as a number and you kind of get in the mindset like well, this is the surgery, this is what you have to do, and you and I am the Professional and you are the patient, this is what you need to do when you get challenged. I mean, it makes us think like, is it really that the case, that this has to be the way? Even now, the six week non-way parent protocol, like Well, yeah, there are people doing research out there say, can we just do two weeks? You know, we used to have to wear a brace after the hip surgery, after the label surgery, and now you don't, because you know the orthopedic group that we're referring to. I mean, they're fantastic like.

Speaker 1: 24:47

I wouldn't Like my kids go there.

Speaker 2: 24:50

They're great doctors. I mean I love working with them. I mean they like my daughter. She broke her arm Four weeks ago and I was able to get her in and she's getting her cast off tomorrow. So you know, I mean they're like such a great group and the reason I like them all is because they're all active people you know they bike and and and row and run.

Speaker 2: 25:16

You know, and so they understand, you know the athlete and that's kind of their the way we progress things. So you know, if I had never got that challenge, I'd never say like, yeah, is this, is this the way we should do it? You know, are we, is this protocol like the way it should be? And we've done updates for calls over the years. You know, I've done the research and say like, what other people don't want, you know, is that okay? So?

Speaker 1: 25:43

And then it be dependent on the person, on the, on the patient, too right. I mean, you know there's all kinds of protocols, like in the functional medicine realm too right. Like, oh well, if you have this gut issue, then this is the protocol, and take these supplements and do this thing, and and we, we. I can't do a protocol as a, as a coach. I can't do the same protocol for every single client. That.

Speaker 2: 26:04

I work if.

Speaker 1: 26:05

I have to Understand that particular client and then develop a strategy. Right, like I don't. I don't like protocols. I mean I get, I get that you know you're always gonna have this average like after labor surgery, six weeks. But then there has to be somebody that's able to look at that and go, okay, does this make sense for this patient?

Speaker 2: 26:26

Yeah, yeah, someone who's really active, who has a good met Metabolic system, like, yeah, the bone's gonna heal faster. You know it's not gonna take the eight weeks that it takes, grandma, because you know it's just naturally, that's, that's the way it goes. But someone that and there's some some truth protocol like you know, If I have a ACL tear and you had the surgery.

Speaker 2: 26:49

It does take time, you know this you could get repeat hemorrhage to see the healing process. But you know, it does take a full year to get back to sport Because that's when you're gonna see like the healing take place and the tendon become strong enough. So you know, there are some, some background to that. But other protocols, like you know, used to be like alright, anti-hip replacement, you can't do a, b and C. And now it's like you could. But you know, let's, let's not, let's eliminate the extreme movement, because when you tell someone that you can't do a, b and C, well, they come, become really scared about moving at all. So you know, but you tell them, you know, just, just, don't do crazy Yoga moves. They're like, oh yeah, I get it. So it's, it's how you pitch it, it's how you put it out there and it's helping the patient understand, like, what is safe and what's not safe.

Speaker 1: 27:39

So I think that's why I would always say, okay, I need to know what not to do. Like, like, tell me the extreme, absolutely positively, don't do this. But what? So? I like, give me, like I need a range, like I need, give me the wiggle room. Like, what can I, what can I do? That Maybe is it advisable, but if I'm careful I could. And then what is the drop dead?

Speaker 1: 28:06

like, absolutely, do not do this right, that kind of thing like that at least that's, that's how I am, and at least I think that's probably how a lot of athletes Would would be verses, and I think there's a different mindset, don't you? Don't you think like?

Speaker 2: 28:20

yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:21

That I would say a lot of true athletes. That is going to be the mindset and verses people who are I Hate using average, but your, your average person, your weekend warrior who's just like I'm gonna go out, you know, for a jog or trying to lose weight right, or something along those lines, trying to get physically active for the first time, and they're like, oh well, my knees hurt, can't do it right, or oh well, that hurts, I can't do it. So I shouldn't write using it more as like using that as a crutch or an excuse to Almost to not get the movement.

Speaker 1: 28:57

Yeah if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 28:59

Yeah, my my favorite videos reels on Instagram. Or Like grandma bodybuilding right, like you're 80 old, like picking up heavy stuff and Keep them moving and staying flexible and staying active. Because, because those are my heroes, like those are the ones that they've they've seen it all, they've done it all and no one's gonna tell them to stop Right. They're almost breaking Barriers and conditioning Things that that you know. Society will tell us like that's not supposed to be. You supposed to get older and weaker and Not do those things anymore.

Speaker 1: 29:42

Yes, fuck that.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Yes.

Speaker 1: 29:46

I want to break all the barriers right In. My grandmother was the same and it's so funny because she was in her 80s and she's continued to motion. Heart conditions, you know, knees hurt, like everything's like swelling up on her, and yet so and and truly because she had like actual heart failure and, you know, flew it on her lungs and stuff, and in and out of the hospital. This woman was in and out of the hospital. She'd get out of the hospital after her late six treatment and come home and mow the grass, wow, with a walking mower right or push mower, not walking mower.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Yeah you know, and and my grandfather was the same way he couldn't walk, he had neuropathy and he couldn't really feel his legs and stuff anymore. But I can tell you I went to the gym with that man and he would get out of his wheelchair and climb on to a piece of equipment and you know, because he knew we could still use his upper body, he did everything he could to like keep his upper body strong and he would try to keep his lower body strong because he knew it was only going to be worse if he wasn't. And we used to fuss it by grandmother about you've got to rest, you got to sit down. And we just got to a point where it was like, well, if there's, I mean she did pass away, but it was like if the woman passes away, push in a lawn mower Because that's what she enjoys, then that's gonna be it. Right, like we have to. I think you and I were talking too about, like this whole concept of like longevity If you don't move it, you will lose it. Right, like it gets worse. It gets worse for me if I don't move. It gets worse for us as we get older if we don't move Like I have a relative who had two hip replacements, one right after the other.

Speaker 1: 31:30

The hip replacements were necessary because of lack of movement, right. It was probably a little bit of like oh I'm sitting all the time, my hips hurt, my hips kill me if I sit all the time, like it is the worst thing I could do, and so then it gets worse. So I do less and less hips hurt, worse and worse. Now I literally it's. The pain is just excruciating. Finally go to the doctor and, oh well, you need two hip replacements. Well, had you maybe kept moving five years beforehand instead of sitting for the last five years, that might not be where we are right, because had you kept those joints active, then we get two brand new hips. If I had two brand new hips, I would be thrilled. So I don't wanna necessarily go through a hip replacement surgery, but if I have to, I will and I will be thrilled to have new hips. So, and then this relative just still doesn't, still doesn't move, and it makes me fucking bonkers that, like you have this, literally this renewed life. There's no pain there anymore, no pain. You can't possibly have pain. You have two brand new hips, right, and the source of the pain is gone and it's. I can see the stiffening, I can see the sitting and it's just like wow, what was all that for?

Speaker 1: 32:50

And that point you made about scaring people into not doing things, that was exactly what was happening during recovery. Right, I was like I just kept saying it. Like that's not what the doctors mean, right, like it does not mean like you're supposed to get up and walk around the house, right? No, should you be squatting all the way down? No, they said, don't squat all the way down. Right, like you shouldn't be squatting. You should be getting up out of your chair and moving around as much as possible with your walker. You know, whatever the case was, you know, during the recovery process. But man, I can't even tell you. Like that's just that, just it just makes me crazy to see people waste their bodies.

Speaker 2: 33:33

I think there's like a definitely a huge mental aspect of that, you know. I mean, when you said yourself, like the mental challenges that you went through, going through injuries, you kind of have to shift your perspective in how you see yourself, you know.

Speaker 2: 33:50

I mean, there was a time, even for myself, where I just didn't like myself, you know, like I didn't work out as much, I couldn't get out there. I was a new parent. You know I'm working a job that you know is challenging me mentally, physically. I became a supervisor. You know, no one tells you how to be a supervisor. You just kind of like you're a good PT and all of a sudden like people like you and you're like here you go, you're trying to be a supervisor?

Speaker 1: 34:18

Hey, you should supervise people too. Yeah, that's a whole other conversation about, like, people who are good at their jobs just being thrown into you know, management material, just because you're a good at your job, but anyway.

Speaker 2: 34:31

So, yeah, I mean, there was a time where I just didn't like myself. My wife could tell me like sometimes I just didn't even take showers for like a week, just because I just didn't, you know, feel like I deserved it. You know I just felt like if I worked out, yeah, I could take a shower then. But yeah, it was a struggle and I think COVID kind of made it more challenging because you know you're so isolated, so not having that community, and that's why I push it so much now for both people that are injured and not injured, because you know there are people that will challenge you to do better things. Or you know, you see, there's a guy at my gym and you know he's such a good shape and, as a CrossFit athlete, like really killing it, and I always make the excuse well, well, he doesn't have kids, you know. Or he's younger than me. He does have kids, you know, and we're the same age. There's no excuse. So seeing it done by someone else will push me to do and be better.

Speaker 2: 35:37

And so it starts there, like just learning how to take a look at yourself, give yourself grace, take some time and really challenge your views. You know of being undeserving. You know, and we always take better care of other people than we take care of better care of ourselves, especially those who are coaches, mentors, moms, dads, and it's like that. You know the airplane.

Speaker 1: 36:07

Put your mask on before anybody else.

Speaker 2: 36:10

Totally, totally. And healthcare professionals. We're so bad at it. We're so bad at it One advocating for ourselves, you know, and then two we're so in tune to even my wife. She's a speech pathologist, right. She wasn't feeling well. It's like why don't you stick the day off? She's like I have this e-mail and this patient that I really need to get in and he hasn't had like two good sessions string together. I'm like how are you gonna take care of that person? You can't take care of yourself you know, so it's a process, you know.

Speaker 2: 36:44

We're still kind of going through it. There's no writing answer, you know. And there's no way to kind of go through it. So you know, for those people who don't see it, it's hard for them to get moving, for whatever reason. Maybe they don't value it, their mindset's different, and that's where I think coaching and it's hard to change people unless they're ready to change.

Speaker 1: 37:09

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:09

So for people.

Speaker 2: 37:11

I got it, it is true, as much as I can push it, and even for my parents, it's hard to tell them to stay active. They're not people that work out or exercise and I know it's a challenge. And the only way I saw them actually get moving it was because I was getting married and my dad wanted to look good, my mom wanted to look good. So that started them on a different journey and they started to feel better after they do it. Now it's a little different. Now it's kind of like they feel like they're getting older. So it's gonna take a little bit of time to change that mindset too. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with that. But with the joint issue, I mean going back to that runners don't get new placements. I mean they do but compared to the general population, it's like 5% of runners maybe get new placements Compared to the general population who it's somewhere between like 10, 15% that will eventually get a new placement If you take like the total amount of people that do.

Speaker 1: 38:22

Why is that? Is it because runners are using their knees and their knees are staying quote unquote healthier than a sedentary person who's not.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Yeah, I mean, I've looked into this research like what causes arthritis? There's a book, whole books, written on it and there's really no A, b and C that causes arthritis. You divide it to rheumatoid, which is autoimmune disease. People have rheumatoid factors that bodies attack the joints and you looked at osteoarthritis, which they call wear and tear. Things that will cause that prior injury is probably the biggest factor. Body mass index is the other factor, so the bigger you are, the more likely you'll have a new placement or something. But other than that, there's no other factor and there has to be some underlying inflammation. There has to be something that's driving that joint inflammation and there's no research that shows that. There's no research that's against that either. So what causes joint inflammation and why is it that more developed countries have more of these joint issues? You don't see plantar fasciitis in India or Vietnam as much, but here it's huge. There's some underlying inflammation or because of diet, your standard American diet, your sad diet. That's the right thing.

Speaker 1: 40:03

Sad is the right acronym for the standard American diet, that's for day, I'm sure. But you're 100% right. I mean, and if you really look at the data in wealthy countries versus less developed countries, or what have you? The obesity rate?

Speaker 1: 40:23

just the health issues, the cardiac issues chronic diseases, all of those things, and that's what it comes down to. And it doesn't mean that everybody with a shitty diet is gonna have a knee replacement. It also doesn't mean people who have a really healthy diet won't need a knee replacement. It's just so. There are genetic factors involved. There's autoimmune factors involved and different types of joint diseases and things like that. But the best thing you can do for yourself is to have movement of some sort and eat healthfully.

Speaker 1: 41:01

And then the mental aspect, because all of it, I think really it all comes down to mindset and being able to do those other things really does come down to because, like you said, like, do you value it? And if you don't, why don't you value it? So that just takes a lot of introspect on your own part and kind of figuring out like and low grade depression, serious depression, those things can really hinder. But also every I mean I would say every scientific study or anecdotal or otherwise, it says the absolute best thing you can do for depression is movement. Yes, yeah, right, I mean there's nothing to dispute that, right, would you agree? Have you ever seen anything that disputes that?

Speaker 2: 41:55

Yeah, even my last primary care follow up, yeah, because we talk about it. You know we, because I was on antipressants for maybe like six months and you know my last primary care fall she's like, oh, how are you doing? You know I was like, oh, I started CrossFit three times a week. She put, you know, she put down. Yeah, you probably feel much better. You know, your mood's probably better.

Speaker 2: 42:20

And my wife tells me all the time, like you know, so we prioritize and we, you know how, like all right, you're going to orange there at what time? Great, I'll have the kids. And then you go to CrossFit, these days I'll have the kids. And then, you know, only in the last year I'd say like we, we do that for each other, where we prioritize that time and make each other do it, because then we're, we're better people with better parents, we're better spouses, we're better, you know, medical practitioners. So that's kind of where we prioritize our movement. And I see it in you too, I mean you, every day. You know, even on the, even your last Instagram post about hey, you know, like not feeling good, not doing good, choose your, choose your heart right, choose your, choose your challenge for the day, and when you prioritize is that like you know just 20 minutes, you know like just go out and for a walk. I mean, it really does change your, your mental aspect.

Speaker 1: 43:16

Well, and sometimes you have to force it right. The reality is and you know we've done an empty dump podcast on motivation, right, so it's, you know, people, your motivation has to be intrinsic. It's not. It has to, you know, be something that, like I'm doing this for my health or I'm doing this because I have to. Like I, I move because I have to, right, I know, and not because somebody's got a gun to my head. But I know that I mean, well, mortality has a gun to my head, right? So that's how I look at it.

Speaker 1: 43:48

It's no different than brushing my teeth. For me, it is just, you know, do I want to keep my teeth? You know, my dentist always says, you know, only brush the teeth you want to keep. It's like, only move the body that you want to keep. It's, it's kind of that, that same thing. But I also know that, like it just I know, for me to feel even halfway okay, even on my shittiest days, if I'm not moving, it's it, you know it, it it's it's way worse. And because I have been through that depression, I've seen both sides of it, I under, and it sounds like you have too right, Like you kind of go through that really dark period and you see what, what the difference is and and how much better that is. But yeah, I, if you, if you're not challenging yourself to do something, and it doesn't have to be like I'm not asking people to squat 200 pounds and not asking anybody to go to orange theory or cross fit or anything right Like go for a two minute walk around your block, get up and, you know, do a couple laps in your house up and don't do that. Right, it's just.

Speaker 1: 44:49

You know, I just posted this goofy little I don't know what's some little cartoon TikTok thing where you know, like a voiceover I've gotten, I keep getting these. It's this little cartoon like thing and it's just like somebody saying I didn't feel, I don't feel well today. I posted this on my team page so my clients could see it and it was like a therapist couch little cartoon. I didn't feel well today. And the therapist like well, did you go outside today? No, did you drink water today? No, did you did you? I'm going to say did you go beat with it? Were you around anybody today? No, did you eat healthy today? No, did you get enough sleep today? No, oh wait, I did get enough sleep. And then it just like it's just like all the things that because the person was like I don't feel good today. Well, did you do anything to feel good today?

Speaker 2: 45:39

Right.

Speaker 1: 45:40

Right To the things that are supposed to help you feel good today.

Speaker 2: 45:43

Did you show yourself some love?

Speaker 1: 45:45

Did you show yourself some love?

Speaker 2: 45:46

Yeah, I mean any of that Like did you do anything to take care of yourself?

Speaker 1: 45:52

Because self, you know, self love isn't. It's not selfish right, or self care is not selfish. Yes, to me it's. It's, it's a necessity, it really is. They put your own mask on before you, anybody else's and good Lord, I can't deal with the playing the martyr with people anymore and the I'm too busy and I'm too important, and this, that and the other thing, and I'm just like, nope, you're not too busy.

Speaker 2: 46:21

You're not too important. We both in there. You know, we both in there.

Speaker 1: 46:24

Nope. Well, and you know, a comment that somebody always used to say to me is Well, I don't know how you do it all and I'm like the only way I do it all is because I do it all. Yeah, I, I couldn't do all the things I do If I wasn't doing all the things I do. If that makes sense, right, like it's getting up every morning in my routine and working out in some way. Right, it is eating a certain way every day. It is doing certain things in my routine. That is what keeps me able to do all the things that I do, right, does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 47:06

Yeah, you have systems like you have like routines and systems and and, and really the mental challenge with any type of new activity or or even even like getting the intrinsic motivation. Sometimes you don't have motivation, so but I have a system set up. I know I'm the, you know I go to CrossFit at Friday at 515, and that's that's just. That's just what I do and I don't have to think about it.

Speaker 2: 47:32

I just go. You know, and that's the beauty of it, there's a coach there and there's a workout you have to do and go through it and you feel better and you know you just have a system set up sometimes.

Speaker 1: 47:41

But let me ask you this. Let me start I don't mean to interrupt you, so because we've both had to kind of like break out of a depression and get into create these systems right, create these habits. Yeah, how did you make yourself go to that first CrossFit class? Because now it's now, you love it and now it's just it's who you are and what you do. But before it was who you are and what you did. Yeah, what was the? What was the mindset in that? Did you have to fight yourself to go? Did you plan it a couple times and not go? Or did you just set your intention, didn't really want to go, but you're like I said I'm going to go, I'm going to go. Like, what was it for you? How did you get there the first time?

Speaker 2: 48:24

So I, over the summer I had trained for a few races, so the Nautilus 10 miler I do every year as a medical runner, and then I did the burden hand half marathon, which is in September. So I always kind of played around with CrossFit. You know I went to a couple of like just sweat workouts with with 12 labors in Annapolis and you know I had a co-work event right there so it was kind of easy to see and I was always so motivated. You know it was something that, like you know, I haven't played with the barbell in a long time and I was like, you know I used to miss that. So as a runner, you know I noticed that I was okay. You know I wasn't necessarily thriving, I wasn't necessarily getting better. And then doing the half burden hand half marathon, which if you ever get a chance, I mean it's it's up in Pennsylvania or by Lancaster, it's run by the Amish and the Amish will run it in full Amish regalia. But then I saw like, like all these older people running by me in the half marathon, I'm like you got to get your shit together. You get old and slow man.

Speaker 2: 49:37

So I was looking at different things and, you know, always dip my toes in it, but never really fully committed. And I was like, what if I did? What would it be if I fully committed, if I was 85 in my deathbed and looking back on my life and I was 41 again, how? What do I do differently? Hell, yeah, I would do CrossFit. You know I would. I would just show up, embarrassed, a beginner, beginner mindset, and just do it.

Speaker 2: 50:08

So even that first time I went to the CrossFit gym coach Eric Eric, you know it was, it was finding some place new. It was, you know, like, what do I do about this parking situation? And it was all. It was very scary. But you know, you show up and the community there is so welcoming hey, you know, welcome. You know this is what we do.

Speaker 2: 50:30

Everyone like introduce themselves. There's a very kind of like I missed that. We're working out with people even going to the gym and that's such a challenge and it's so intimidating Sometimes when you, you know, walk around and see people lifting weights, like no one's talking to each other, everyone has headphones on. But in this community, yeah, like, people help each other out. You got to coach watching you. You know you're going to have like what could work out. You modify it if you need to, and they show you like how to modify it. And even then I was like do I, you know, do I belong here? You know, it took like the coach texting me again. It's like, hey, you know, I hadn't seen a while, like what's up with that.

Speaker 2: 51:05

I was like you know what, let's do it, you know so I committed three times a week and I did it, you know, just kind of keep going. And all of a sudden I see the new guy and I remember myself there and I welcome him and it's such like a wonderful microcosm of community and people pushing you to do better and be better.

Speaker 1: 51:26

So yeah, and I think that's it's so important and it's you know concept that I'm always preaching, especially to like new clients and stuff. It's like just one thing, right. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie.

Speaker 1: 51:39

Brittany runs a marathon, it's, I think it's I think it's like one of that we used to play at our retreat every year because it's such a shining example of just one thing. You got to take one step, right. You got to what she do. She ran one block and it was fucking miserable and she hated it. Right, and it first, and then, and then the next time you go a little further, and the next time you go a little further, right, and so. But it's just one thing.

Speaker 1: 52:03

We don't do all the things at once, right? I don't ever ask a client to like drink all the water, get all the sleep, go to the gym five days a week and meditate five days a week and eat all the vegetables and the fruit and change their diet and do everything all at once. That's insanity and it's a recipe for disaster, right? So we have to have it stack and we kind of, like I say, start small to build big. You have to take these little baby steps and this really cool meme. That's like a picture of two ladders and it's one with like little rungs that are like like I mean in the picture, right, they're like a half an inch apart.

Speaker 1: 52:38

There's a whole bunch of little rungs and then there's ones that are like the rungs are like 10 feet apart and it's like the little person at the bottom and it's like, okay, which one of these are you going to actually be able to get up quick, more quickly? Right, you do this one little step at a time versus like trying to get. I can't even get to the first rung because I've set it and set that bar so high and right. I'm just like, okay, like get, if you're only getting 2000 steps a day, why don't we try to get three to tomorrow? Right? If you only drink 60 ounces of water today, let's try to do 70 tomorrow, right? Or we just focus on one thing and then all those little successes. So that first time you went was probably really hard and really uncomfortable, and even maybe the second, third time you went was probably still not super comfortable, but you started to be like, okay, well, I did this once, so the second time wasn't as scary, maybe the third time wasn't as scary, and then it you know. But if you don't ever take that first step and I kind of love what you said about like, if I'm 85 year old, jack sitting in my deathbed, what would I want my 41 year old self to do? Right, Like what would? What would? What would I do Like.

Speaker 1: 53:47

I'm so much more afraid of not doing something and wishing I had the doing it and failing at it or feeling a fool, or you know it's again. It goes back to like choose your heart. You got to make yourself uncomfortable every single day in some way. Right, do something you don't want to do. That's the only way to build resiliency and it is the way that you build habits, because you don't know, unless the only failure is just not is, is just not trying, and then before you know it, it does become who you are.

Speaker 1: 54:19

I've been. You know I I can't, I can use myself as an example, but I know I've been training since I was 21 years old, so 30 years now. So is doing that hard for me? No, like that, literally is just who I am right, drinking water is the same thing. I don't ever get less than like a half a gallon and a half. If not, you have two gallons of water a day and and I fight with clients all the time that won't drink their water, and I fight with clients that, like you know, refuse to like really develop healthy sleep habits. It's a constant fight for on a lot of things, but it really it's just you know doing that one little thing, one small thing at a time, because I'm sure when you first started running it probably did not come naturally to you. You probably I don't know anybody who their first run was like that was the best thing I ever did. Everybody who runs for the first time is like man, that fucking sucks.

Speaker 2: 55:17

Oh, you're only shitting yourself. The first time I ran, so it was, it was rough, I mean yes, and then you went back right.

Speaker 1: 55:22

So there was something about it that that made you decide to like do it again. But yeah, I think I mean I think our conversation went in a little bit of a different direction than maybe we started off. But I think this is fabulous. I think I didn't know the you know, depression aspect and like getting into CrossFit and stuff, and I think that that's really cool that you shared that. But if you had, you know, from your physical therapy perspective if you had like one, two or three different pieces of advice that you know you would say to anybody and everybody about longevity, keeping their body moving, so that maybe they don't have to come see you, or when they should come see you, or you know how people should should like the number one, two and three pieces of advice that you would give to people.

Speaker 2: 56:18

Yeah, yeah, you know, I think pain guidance is helpful. You know I think we talked about it already where you know if it hurts and it just kind of goes away, yeah, keep, keep, keep moving, you know, but it hurts and it starts to linger, you know things, things kind of linger. There's a lot of opportunity there. You know. Even just Maryland itself is a, is a. You know it's called open access day. You can see any physical therapist anytime, without referral, like you go and knock on their door or call them up and Say, hey, you know, now your insurance might say something different.

Speaker 1: 56:56

Sure it does. My insurance company disagrees, but you're the but your business now you're not. You don't take insurance right. So you're doing more or less a private practice, which yeah. I think a lot more. I personally think that that's opening the opportunity for a lot more people to do it, because what you, I don't. I think, when it comes down to it, a lot of times, what you charge is not much different than I would pay for my copay.

Speaker 2: 57:21

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And and even for myself, my wife, like she, she's going to do like All this hormone testing, because you know she wasn't gonna answer, it's like it. Just, you know You're, you're a1c, looks fine, your classroom it's fine, good, I'll see you later, but she doesn't feel great, you know. So is there something else that we look? So, yeah, we, you know we're working with like function, that is, you know I'm gonna get my tests, myself tested for stuff.

Speaker 2: 57:46

Just make sure I'm optimizing my health right yeah feeling good and that's the thing, like I think, with, with with joint issue, muscle pain, like other ways for you to optimize yourself, like, yeah, keep moving, you know you, you take some time and make sure all your joints are Moving, or your knees straightening. Can you get good hip internal rotation? Does your back extension look good? You know, if those are like things that you can't you know, or things that maybe you were doing before that you can't now like, yeah, get it checked out. You know A lot of people offer like just screenings and and it's, it's. Most of them are free. You know I do it once a month, that Draft and yoga, and I'll probably offer it at my clinic at some point where people just come in with questions and ask Cuz I don't know, like I don't know how to change my oil, so I'd take someone change it. I could probably learn.

Speaker 1: 58:41

Zero interest in changing my own oil, so I'm gonna take a take a time for that you know, and I have time for it. I don't want to do it. That's not even money I care to save. I'm just gonna I'm gonna pay somebody to do it Exactly.

Speaker 2: 58:52

So why gamble with your health? I mean, just think about hip issues, right? If you're sitting, more well the research shows that shortens up to hip flexors, and the tighter your hip flexors are, the more compression that causes at the hip. More compression means, yeah, lack of blood flow. It means lack of blood flow also means degeneration. Your body knows if you're not using it, and if you're not using it, then it starts to break it down and use it for other things. Your body's very smart and very efficient. If you're sitting all day and your back's more in lumber flexions and extension, yeah, it's gonna get stiff that way. So when you have to do a deadlift, of course it's gonna hurt. Your hamstrings are tight, your hip flexors are tight, your lower core is weak and you try to pick up something heavy yeah, it's gonna hurt your back.

Speaker 2: 59:37

So, everyone's dead. Everyone has their way that they're gonna approach life and their physical fitness, but sometimes getting a little bit of advice from someone is actually free. So avoid the YouTubes, avoid the Google. Dr Google, dr, google, dr, google there are lots of good stuff out there, but it's all about bad stuff, lots of bad stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:00:04

Oh yeah, I do lots of Googling and I try a lot of things on my own and then I'm like I can't do this on my own. And then that's when I find you and the dry needling to me is like, I think, one of the best inventions on the planet. If somebody hasn't done it, I highly recommend. Cupping has been great, but dry needling. People ask me what is dry needling? I always said, well, it's acupuncture without the chi.

Speaker 1: 1:00:37

Sure there's no chi involved. There's nothing relaxing about it. It's usually a little bit more painful for a reason, actually just real quick. We have a couple of minutes. So what is dry needling if somebody hasn't done it before, and why should they get it, and what's the benefit?

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

Yeah, yeah. So you got to treat your muscles like organs. They have a metabolic process to it. They also have a referred pain pattern. So just like your organs, any organ say you get a heart attack, there's a natural kind of pain progression to it Neck, shoulder, back pain and it doesn't mean your neck, shoulder, back hurts, it's just your heart also has sensation tied to those areas as your body. There's a warning. So muscles, like any organ, sometimes they're tender, to the touch, painful. They can also refer pain in different areas.

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

That's called the trigger point. You naturally have trigger points because that acetylcholine just kind of sticks around. It's a neurochemical that helps to kind of contract muscle. But if that muscle is overstimulated or overtight or maybe it did something, that kind of tweaks to join a little bit, it's a natural mechanism to try to protect it or an efficiency. So someone who has like chronic neck tightness or chronic upper trap tightness, maybe just enough positional so you could massage it, you could try to dig it out, you could try to get into it. But sometimes that's painful on itself.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

So a needle, acupuncture needle, usually between 20 millimeters to 60 millimeters in diameter, you go in and touch that trigger point and it just releases that acetylcholine to get that muscle to relax. Super cool. I used to do like the manual kind of digging that area a lot. I knew I couldn't do that all my life. So learning how to dry needle and just getting to experience it and working with different patients over the last couple of years, I mean it hands down, it's like the quickest way to improve pain and symptoms and just kind of get the muscle feeling like it should and that's where the healing takes place, right. If the muscle is so tight, well, what's tight is the blood flow of that area and if I can get some more blood flow to the area.

Speaker 2: 1:02:53

Get the muscle loosened up. It just optimizes your healing. And then here these are exercises, these are things I want you to do to get the blood flow to it to move it Just a tool, just like anything else. It's just a tool. Yeah, that's kind of what dry dealing is to me.

Speaker 1: 1:03:11

I think it's fantastic. I've had some really good results from it and different perspectives. But my favorite is with what I call the little baby jumper cables. When you hook me up like Frankenstein and you put the needles in and then you get the little jumper cables to it and then we do the stem at the same time and you can just feel like everything whatever. And then, of course, I have had some dry needling experiences where not from you but from somebody else where, but it was.

Speaker 1: 1:03:45

It was so needed. The muscle was so tight in my quad and in my groin. It was after my hip surgery and there was so much scar tissue and all of that stuff after it. I literally felt like somebody took a baseball bat to my thigh. After every single session it felt like it hurt, but it loosened it up. It was like it needed again. That kind of got the blood flowing and over time that really ended up making a difference. So I'll definitely put in the notes how to get in touch with you, but you, so that if people are interested in reaching out to you, you are in Annapolis. Native PT right, did I get the whole name right? Native PT? Yeah, in Annapolis, I'd have actually had a really cool sort of training facility there in the Annapolis area, but so I'll put your contact information but anything else you want anybody to know before we sign off.

Speaker 2: 1:04:47

No, I mean I just want to shout out to you because just seeing what you do over the years, how you transform people, it's amazing to see and I've always admired you from your coaching standpoint. So it's always been a pleasure to work with you and you definitely kind of pushed me in the right direction. Being a small business owner and doing your own thing, I'm like man, tina is such inspiration, so thank you that means a lot actually.

Speaker 2: 1:05:25

I think you just need to just shout it out more. I think, just let. And going into the wellness space, I'm so happy for you because I feel like the body transformation is so much harder. Like you're doing the bodybuilding thing, I mean even for myself, like going through growing up. But you know, men get that same feeling too where my body's not good enough. You know, like you see these pictures and magazines and movies, you know, like, how do I look like Thor?

Speaker 1: 1:06:01

Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind looking like Thor.

Speaker 2: 1:06:05

But then you realize like that's temporary, you can't look at that all the time and the way that it's portrayed in media and especially social media, like yeah, that's like the male standard, no, it's not. So getting people to be able to achieve that thing, and then realize that it's not something you keep, it's just something that you have and achieve for a little bit of time for the show. And then you know there's a cycling process. It's amazing to see. So I'm so happy to you know, reconnect and kind of get the chat again.

Speaker 1: 1:06:45

So yeah, this was, and I appreciate because I have to. You know, I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the really great doctors. You know like I call, you know, like I said, the put Humpty Dumpty back together again and the great physical therapists, and you know that I've had. I keep coming back to you. I think at one point I was like you weren't even certified to do that dry needling yet.

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

And I'm just going to come to your house then, because we happen to live in the same neighborhood and I know that was probably weird, but I was like I'm just desperate and I don't feel like getting a referral and I need to just get something done. But yeah, so I appreciate that from you and this was a really fun conversation. I hope other people like it and I think that if people have questions or maybe we could do a Q&A and do another podcast if people have specific questions, maybe a live thing that we could do in the future if people are interested in that, because I think you have a wealth of knowledge on and most people that are listening to this podcast are interested in movement in some way, shape or form, whether they're bodybuilders or weekend warriors or otherwise. So I think you have a lot to offer. So I'm excited for you in your new endeavor. Thank you, yeah, I'm happy to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:02

I love doing this stuff. I mean again the intro out there, and if we can change people's minds like hell yeah, let's do it yeah. You know about movements, about pain, about joint issues. I mean there's so much bad info out there so I'm happy to connect.

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

Yeah, and I have a really great book recommendation for you and for listeners if they want to read it. But Dopamine Nation.

Speaker 2: 1:08:26

Yeah, you want that one. It's on my list. It's on my list.

Speaker 1: 1:08:29

But that one on your list with the Body Keeps the Score.

Speaker 2: 1:08:32

Yeah, that's another one. You're my second patient. That's recommended to me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:36

Yeah, it's a good one. It'll just give you a different perspective on the Body Keeps the Score, give you a different perspective on the hurt versus harm, right, sure, and you know there's some other books related to that, and you know a lot of the psychosomatic pain, trauma-based pain, physical pain that is not actually related to injury, right, and sort of understanding that. So, again, getting back to the mental aspect of things, because pain is always in your head but not in your head, the way people try to make you seem right, that's where pain is always in your head, which is not actually at the pain point. It happens in your brain. But yeah, I think you'll like those books and I think our listeners will too, if they take a listen. Do you know our sign-off? Have you listened to enough of the podcast and know my sign-off?

Speaker 2: 1:09:31

No, no, you don't. Sorry Did you not get to the end of the podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:09:35

Did you fast forward through that part?

Speaker 2: 1:09:37

I was doing some yard work and taking out Christmas trees. Dad's life.

Speaker 1: 1:09:43

It goes. Don't get weird, use your head, it'll all be okay. Nice, I mean, just think about what you're doing, all the things we just talked about. It's all in your head, right? So, mental, don't get weird about it, just think about it and it'll all be okay. Yep, yep, all right. Well, thank you so much for joining me and we will say bye for today.